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women in judaism: modesty

This is from an email I sent to someone, that I don't think got through... it does represent some of the thoughts I have been having lately.
I also would welcome any comments
Please excuse any unclear phrasing; I am very busy right now.

email I wrote:

Hello,
Thank you for this opportunity to comment on the subject:

I am a woman who was brought up about as secular as possible, but am
now moving toward a more observant life, as I see the beauty of it and
find out more about it; this does give me more of a need for a
"cultural perspective" on things. While on a practical, subjective,
side of things I feel more self-respecting, and more like my true
self, when I dress more modestly--on the other hand, I was very
interested to research more the history of Jewish women from the more
distant past, to the times over the past few hundred years, and this
brought me to some conclusions that explain the strictness:

1) All women may have covered their hair when living in middle-eastern
countries, and so that was a "biblical" norm of modesty for the
surrounding culture as well.
2) When women were living in Eastern Europe over the past few hundred
years, and were in the shtetls and such places, the stability of the
Jewish community depended on not having conflicts with the surrounding
neighbors, and since--as in Native American cultures today on
reservations, for example--outside men would easily rape a Jewish
woman and not suffer the consequences of law, and Jewish men may not
have been able to fight back in any feasible way, since a conflict
would have put the community at risk as a whole: therefore, any act a
woman could do (i.e. especially stringent modesty, including covering
hair, and ankles, etc...) would definitely be of great worth to her
family and community!

I have come to a funny kind of understanding of Rabbinical law, that I
am not sure if what is quite held to be "Orthodox" but somehow I am
able to keep the two sides of things in my mind, in paradox, but
harmony: I feel like Rabbinical law could be objected to as not "being
required by G-d" in the sense that it has different interpretations,
and one person may argue with another as to details...but on the other
hand, when a community (especially such a large community as the
Jewish People) agrees to do things in one way, that agreement in and
of itself serves to strengthen any actions taken by any one or all of
the People. Why? It seems to me that since our job is to serve G-d as
best as possible in our role as an example and possibly light-bringers
to the world, unity must have strength. So in that case, any
"rebellion" unless for the sake of rebellion alone, does not serve
oneself or the whole.

All of this is not very well researched, or clearly thought out, but
it is the way I have been dealing with what, in modern society, can be
thought of as "superstition" or such.

Thank you again for listening.

Out of the mouth of...

This morning as I was driving to work, my daughter asked me: "Is it going to be Easter soon?

I thought, what to answer? I didn't want to say something negative, but I didn't want to confuse her after all we had been celebrating Easter two years ago, and hadn't talked about this particular holiday.
"Well, Easter is a holiday that people who go to Christian churches celebrate. Christian people believe that Jesus died and became alive again on Easter. They believe that he was not only a good teacher who taught them about God, but also that he was God. And we are Jewish, we believe that God is everywhere. Jewish people don't believe that a person can be God."
"Of course," she said, "There is one God, and God is everywhere. That would mean if God was a person that there was a split--that there were two parts. God could be two places if God was split, and then God would not be in some place but in two places. God is one, everywhere, so it can't be that way. (sorry if this is not word for word, hers was better!)

I was impressed. She turned 6 only this summer!

A short...

A small post at the end of a work day. We are very grateful that our two older children have found a place at a Jewish school...we will see how this goes, as school starts in a week!
Getting health insurance in place for the pregnancy--my but it is strange to be preggers again. That's an annoying word, but so there.
The Rabbi suggested going to the mikvah since we had been involved in Christianity for a couple of years. Before the high holidays... interesting idea. I am thinking about it.

Grateful Rant

So, I am in a grateful mood. Maybe because after my husband did a bunch of laundry and dishes on Monday, and then I folded and put away a bunch and remade all the kids beds I felt good about myself. Maybe because I have been praying and journaling daily and regularly and I feel more at peace. Maybe because I finally got our car repaired and its all clean and shiny (though they did charge me twice by accident and are still figuring that out)
...Or maybe its because we're expecting a baby! I always wanted four children. Thank you G-d for bringing another soul into our life. We're not telling anyone yet, although the belly's beginning to show. Maybe its because I'm so grateful that I have such a wonderful family. Thank you, Hash-m for that!!!!!

Okay, I will be on my way now.

May you all have a wonderful Shabbat and continuation of your weekend--and may you all be blessed to feel the gratefulness of the beauty of life surrounding and in you.

A mother in America

This is a little rant, I guess about what it is to be a family in America:
Where is the childcare? Where is the support for the working moms? I'm not even a single mom--I'm married--and I'm still complaining.
I was listening to NPR today, and there was this theme today on "On Point" which was "does abstinence work for teenagers?" or something to that effect. And the women on the show were debating (arguing a bit) whether it was better to include comprehensive sex education in teens' education, or just teach abstinence. Now one woman was saying that while with her own children she encouraged them to wait as long as possible, she also wanted them to always turn to her as a first resource in the event that they did become active in this department. Just as she always would ask them not to drink and never to get in a car with someone who had been drinking--they could and should always call her to get a ride home should they be in such a situation. To which the woman advocation teaching abstinence only replied, "well, medically it is proven that abstinence works, and that has not been proven about regular safe-sex sex education. This annoyed me greatly. Then a more liberal voice gave the statistics that in California which has refused grant money for "abstinence only" programs, the teen pregnancy rate has fallen by 40 somehthing percent, and the abortion rate has fallen as well--so it's not just a matter of not giving birth in the first place. The abstinence only woman said that abstinence was saying, not "no" but "yes!" she said, "it means, 'I say yes to having a future.' "
...But it started me thinking: if teens are putting off sex, they should have a valid option if they have gotten pregnant: like getting married, and knowing that their life is still on track.
Why is our country so not family friendly???? Why can't a person start a family at a young age and still expect to get an education and go on to a well-earning job--why renegade all people who have accidentally or purposely ended up with a family at a young (college or younger) age to a life of struggle. It could be all solved with government grants and quality government-sponsored childcare.

Or take the guy on NPR last night that said he didn't think it was a good idea for "poor people" to be getting rent vouchers that allowed them to move into good neighborhoods because it was (paraphrasing) "no fair to the people who had played by the rules to make their money: making good choices and doing all the correct things. And now poor people who hadn't done all the right things would be their neighbors." Classism anybody?

Then on the next segment, a guy who was a guest on the show said that (again paraphrasing) "Katie Couric can't be expected to do a good job as a news anchor, being that she is a single mother with two girl children at home." This infuriated me, because both the fill-in host of the show as well as the other guests didn't call him on this sexist remark (it had just been noted that she made 15 mil a year, so no issues with getting a nanny here).

Thank GOODNESS a caller about 15 minutes later did make just this point that it was off the wall to bring in the issue of her single-mother status in regards to her job.

Excuse my angry tone (not that the subject shouldn't get one mad!) since I am in a rush here, and don't have time to edit for more objective voice...

In any case, I am thinking that the problem in this country is not abortion or the glass ceiling for women--but the social and job system that is only set up for college educated males.

Women do not have equality as long as any woman can not get an education, have a family AND make a decent living.

Thank you and good afternoon!

Signed,
Me on my Soapbox

RIVERS OF BABYLON

RIVERS OF BABYLON
by The Melodians
(B. Dowe - F. McHaughton, adapted from Psalm 137:1)
By the rivers of Babylon
Where we sat down
And there we wept
When we remembered Zion

But the wicked carried us away in captivity
Required from us a song
How can we sing King Alfa song
In a strange land
Cause the wicked carried us away in captivity
Required from us a song
How can we sing King Alfa song
In a strange land

Sing it out loud
Sing a song of freedom sister
Sing a song of freedom brother
We gotta sing and shout it
We gotta talk and shout it
Shout the song of freedom now

So let the words of our mouth
And the meditation of our heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight
Over I
So let the words of our mouth
And the meditation of our heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight
Over I

Sing it again
We've got to sing it together
Everyone of us together

By the rivers of Babylon...
(Original lyrics from the 1972 album sleeve of "The Harder They Come" o.s.t. ) by Don Julian

It's been Posted

The "ask the rabbi " site posts my question (with some editing of my rambling email, on their part):

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-1943/interfaith-couples/

A new post

So, after not having posted in a while, there are many thoughts bouncing around in my head:
1. A blog is sort of like the ultimate diary that you wished someone would read and give you feedback on, but it always seemed too personal to show your loved ones
2. I have been resolving the male/female role issue by taking the responsibility for the traditional female role--and found that I didn't like it when my husband was taking over for me on the days I got too tired to make dinner. That's wierd. Not that his helping was unwelcome--but I didn't like him feeling the need to "make-up" for my laziness.
I guess there is a big difference from me doing all I can, and then designating "tasks" for those in the family to do their share in housework, and me just getting lazy sometimes and letting other people do things--in that case, if I get mad about someone in the family not doing something, I am in the wrong because I have not done all of my share. Good. Glad to figure that one out.
3. My hubby and my communication has gotten much better due to our acceptance of our Male/Female roles. I'd like to talk to our Rabbi about this issue for more clarity, since it seems to be working out so well. By the way, My hubby refers to him as "our Rabbi" now, so that is a big step in us both being on the same page in our religious viewpoint on our little family.

I was having such epiphanies in the car this morning on the way to work. Of course I've forgotten them all now. The more I try to "be observant" the more satisfying it is--but at the same time I don't want to go too far so that I feel like I've failed if I decrease the mitzvot I am doing.

I emailed the askmoses.com website to ask about covering my hair, since I'm not married officially by Halacha, and they replied that if I was already donig it I should continue...but since I had already stopped by the time I emailed--I decided not to.

Actually, I am feeling more and more comfortable with my/our level of observance in our home.

I spend a lot of our free time with kids in Jewish educational type activities (i.e. if we watch a movie, it might be on the topic--if we read a storybook, it is often a Jewish kids book, etc).
I say brachas often, and we celebrate the Sabbath, although not doing everything correctly, we do have dinner/candle lighting/kiddush etc and try to spend Saturdays in family activity including going to Shul, visiting the Rabbi's house, etc...

That's my update for now. Till next time...

Sin of Idolatry

You know, I think of idolatry as a sin not in as a "wrongdoing," but maybe more as having a mistaken understanding of the way things work.
I think of it as Hash-m is an ultimate power, and all else is of lesser strength--so when we grasp at a straw, or a string or even a rope, it is never as strong as our trusting above all in Hash-m, and when we grasp at something lesser, it always has the possibility of breaking.

That is the freedom and correctness of not being "idolotrous" in any way.

We idolize our relationships (oh, if only he/she liked me)
We idolize material things (if I had this car/house/etc I could be happy and at peace)

All this can be taken away. Only inner peace survives--and inner peace exists when we are in concurrence with Hash-m's rules of operation. I don't pretend to understand all of the rules yet, most likely not ever, but I do feel that searching for them and acting upon them is the surest way to true joy.

Self Contemplation

I am going to take a moment for self-review and encouragement. I need to put things a little in perspective since, being the perfectionist that I am, I need to keep my life and my actions in perspective.
To myself:
For the events of the last few years, I am doing pretty well. In the past seven years (since 1999), I have:

1. graduated from a four-year Institute, receiving a BA equivalent in a foreign language, in a foreign country
2. moved to Russia and back TWO times (I am talking full out moving, not visiting); so that makes 4 international moves--3 of which I was pregnant for
   
3. I have gotten married (including meeting my future spouse-courtship, etc)
   
4. we have gone through three pregnancies, three births (ranging from medical c-section to vbac, to unassisted home birth--that last wasn't officially planned!)
5. have been baptised in the Russian Orthodox church, then am currently in the process of returning to my birthright: Judaism
   
6. have lived in countless different living-spaces from apartment to garage to other places I don't feel like sharing at the moment;
   
7. been a stay-at-home-mom with three toddlers, and now am working full time.

During this time I have been blonde twice, reddish-haired many times, and natural dark-brown a couple.
My children have changed childcare and schools almost every 3-6 months.

Okay? Now, where am I?

I am still married, living in a stable situation (G-d willing that such a situation should continue), returning to Judaism with my three children (G-d willing, we are all in good health), working, praying, looking for the newest way forward.

I was thinking of putting a mezuzah on our front doorway.
What do you think of that?

Hats...

"A religion is a movement in which people find themselves; a cult is a movement in which people lose themselves.

A cult hijacks your identity and makes you into someone you aren't. A true religion should enhance and deepen your identity, to make you a better you."

This is a quote from the last post. My writing is not that great lately. Blogging is not bringing out my inner-nitpicking editor. Perhaps that is because I like some space to look back on what I've written from a distance, and this journaling style doesn't allow for it. On the other hand, guess that maybe I just won't assume that being a journalist is close to my current capabilites. So, here goes, I'll dive in!

The above quote could just as well be about losing myself in another person: a good statement about co-dependency vs. interdependency.

I admit, I have a strong streak of the co-dependent in me. Although I may seem independent, it all depends on having that one "someone" to base all my personal reference points on.
I see, as my other-half is away for a 2 week trip, that I am lapsing in to non-personality self. Or maybe another word is depression.

But it is the same for religion; if I lose my reference point of religion, I become a non-soul. I know that sounds dramatic, but it is very real to me.

Hopefully this next week or two will be a positive experience, as my coming to Judaism was.

A little history: I had been Eastern Orthodox for 5 plus years, then I began actually going to church regularly, singing in the choir, enjoying it all...and after about a year, I wanted to really get deeper--I prayed regularly as I could, using the correct books, but it didn't have a good hold on me--and so I tried a couple of times to talk to the priest, and although a very kind and moral man, he didn't really have any practical advice. (Maybe I thought he was a Rabbi? to give me day to day practical advice)...
So I decided to read the Bible, here I came upon, almost immediately (in the book of Genesis) some confusing things about giants that were possibly marrying the daughters of G-d??? And there were these Nephilim giants as well, or something else entirely. First clue that the Bible cannot stand on it's own--only much later did I find out about Talmud.
Okay, so I tell my husband, we can't figure anything out between us, and we ask the priest, and he says, "oh yes, everybody has thought up various answers to that, it's already been explored," but that's not really helpful.
Next, I am reading and everything is so gory and angry all the time, and I think, "what does this have to do with Jesus Christ--and why is G-d always punishing people? Why does someone need to be born save us from G-d, I don't agree with believing in that kind of god" Basically, I realized that the Old and New Testament are not at all alike.
I fell into a deep depression (relatively, I mean, I could go to work and talk and stuff) and life felt black and hopeless for about a five days. I had not been depressed in years, so although it this wasn't a long time, I was afraid that it could continue--it felt familiar to the depression I'd had for years as a teenager.
Then I met someone who had subscribed a particularly wild theory about the universe and the meaning of life (it involved aliens and genetics) -- and that side-tracked me for a while.
When I came to the conclusion that this particular theory was all bunk, I was feeling really completely intellectually fizzled out...I was left with going to church, and not believing in the validity of it all, since I couldn't reconcile the Bible with real life, and I find religions like Buddhism depressing, since there since there isn't any G-d in it. I mean, I was brought up atheist/existentialist, and that had depressed me no end, which is how I got involved in religion in the first place.
I had never considered Judaism as a viable religion, the general culture mainly accepting it as a precursor to Christianity (and all those booklets from the short time I'd studied with a Catholic priest, as well as the ones from evangelicals about how "Christianity is the only religion where you have a personal relationship G-d."

A couple months later I started to think about Israel and the Middle East, read up on it a little, and then "coincidentally" the whole crisis that went on in 2006 began, and I was glad of the informational background.
As I accepted my Jewish-self, for the first time I felt accepting and respecting of myself in general. I hadn't realized how much disregarding my Jewishness had affected me, but after "coincidentally" watching a documentary about Orthodox Jews, I suddenly began to feel like I understood myself, and had a right to connect to G-d.
Bit by bit started looking into Judaism, met the local Chabad family and began going to Shul.
Oh, by the way, my mother is full-blooded Jewish, though not religious, so I was immediately accepted as Jewish, as were my three children.
I didn't realized until this time that I had taken myself to be of some really lesser ilke than the rest of the world, that it wasn't good to be short and dark-haired and earthy. I am not saying I am bad-looking :) but I always felt insecure about not being blond... now I realize that the reason my mom had passed onto me these odd ideas was because of what her Jewish generation had been through--and that my grandmother had thought these same things...all of because the difficult times they had lived in. So I also suddenly felt SO connected to Hash-m!
I never felt right praying to Jesus. I would say "Jesus save me" and cross myself in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and feel cut-off. I thought it was just lack of emotionality. Now I feel that it was my innate sense that one cannot put someone else before G-d.

At the current moment, after going back and forth in myself about this question, I have come to the understanding that for me, Jesus, may have lived, and if he did, and if some of the Gospels are correct, then he was a Teacher. But the idea of him being G-d is not clear to me. I also have some of my own theories about the necessity of there arising the religion of Christianity at the time it did--and they turned out to be the same as the Rabbi explained he had learned, so I guess I'm not so dumb...

Now I have been going to Shul, trying not to rush my kids or self into anything. But we also stopped going to the church (it was "coincidentally" such good timing for it not to be too awkward, since the priest we had known there the whole year we'd been going to this parish, as well as the one woman I was close to, transferred to another area just then).

I have a feeling I will be going back to edit this at some point soon--but I will post it, until it seems to messy, at which point I will either edit it or delete it.

Now we go to Shul weekly, I keep semi-kosher (don't buy non-kosher meat, don't serve meat and dairy together), and I for some reason decided to start dressing more modestly. I liked the idea of covering my head/hair, and for about three months I did this, until people started mistaking me for a fully-observant Jew, and it was uncomfortable. I hadn't understood this issue till it happened to me personally. I was flattered to be thought as such, but if I didn't eat kosher food at a restaurant, for example, it looked hypocrytical. Also people started talking to me in Hebrew before we were introduced, and also a few times mistook me for various local Rabbis' wives (my three young children, under the age of six, seem to have contributed to this idea, as well).

My daughter's ceramics teacher asked, "Are you Orthodox Jewish or something? Because, I was in Israel once with my Church, and I know that Orthodox women have lots of kids, I saw so many of them with lots of kids."

Anyway, as I said, I kept this up for three months, and people at work started commenting on my new hat collection...but the thing that ended it all was I realized that my husband wasn't into all this.
He had seemed interested in Judaism, a few times telling me stories of how he had identified with Jews as a child, wondering if he was related... but at some point he became less receptive, and didn't seem interested in attending the Jewish events with me and the kids-- and then one day I realized, "I'm not married to a Jewish man. It's silly for me to be keeping this rule when I am not only not married according to the laws of Israel, but he's not even Jewish."

Well, that was sort of personal for an anonymous blog. But I'll leave it in. And I'll wrap this up and get going to bed. I didn't explore the personality/codependency/religious framework thing, but it'll have to wait for a day when don't have to get up so early the next day...

Q U E S T I O N O F T H E W E E K

Hopefully it is acceptable to post this, since the link is included to the source. I have read this before, and there are a lot of questions that this answers that I am going to base my next post on:

Cult or Religion?
By Aron Moss
-----------------

Question:

I'm in Israel now and I've come across a situation that I don't know what to make of; perhaps you can help. I'm asking you because you're the only religious person I know.

Basically I bumped into an old classmate of mine. She is studying here in some Jewish seminary, and she has become religious. After speaking to her for about 5 seconds I felt that she has been brainwashed. The way she was speaking was as if she was in a cult. It was a bit scary.

I have nothing against religion, but could it be that religious Judaism is a cult?


Answer:

While it is not a cult, even Judaism can sometimes be used in ways that are disturbingly similar to how people behave in a cult.

What is the difference between a cult and a religion? Most people define the term cult so vaguely that anyone with strong opinions could be classified as a cult follower.

The best working definition I have heard is this:

A religion is a movement in which people find themselves; a cult is a movement in which people lose themselves.

A cult hijacks your identity and makes you into someone you aren't. A true religion should enhance and deepen your identity, to make you a better you.

People who find religion go through changes. They learn to explore parts to their personality that they never knew existed. As a result, they often re-evaluate themselves and their lives. All growth is accompanied by some upheaval and instability, so they may go through a short period where they seem a bit weird to their friends and family. They may even missionize a bit, and try to "convert" everyone around them. They mean well -- they just want to share their newfound inspiration with those they love. This is normal, and the family should try to be patient.

However, if they start to turn into someone else altogether, if they seem unrecognizable, then there could be cause for concern. If they lose their personality, their sense of humor, their interest in others, or their ability to think, then they may have lost themselves. If these symptoms persist, seek rabbinic advice. They may have fallen prey to a cult -- or are using a religion as a cult.

Cults demand that you jump in unquestioningly. But when you make such sudden changes, you will have to leave your self behind. This is not the Jewish way. Judaism encourages questioning, even honest skepticism. Jewish spiritual development is done gradually and with thought. That way the changes will be real, as they integrate and harmonize with your personality rather than overwhelm it.

Give your friend some time. If she is indeed brainwashed, it probably won't last -- she will jump out as quickly as she jumped in. Judaism can't be used as a cult for long. But more likely she will settle to a balanced medium, where her old self will come back again, but with a depth and direction that she never had before. Sometimes you have to lose yourself a little bit to find yourself again.


- Rabbi Aron Moss teaches Kabbalah, Talmud and practical Judaism in Sydney, Australia.

- To view this article on the Web, or to post a comment, please click here: http://www.chabad.org/166907.

What a violent dream

Last night I had a dream that I went into a church (a Catholic-type church a la "The Da Vinci Code") and was immediately attacked by a large priest who was holding a 2 foot long saber!
The rest of the dream--it seemed like forever--was me reatreating and fighting. I think I finally won, and then I awoke.

It may have been triggered by two things...
1) a confrontational event with someone the day before that had shaken up me some
2) having someone make very disparaging and critical remarks about Russian people to my face, not knowing that I am Russian, and had spent many years living there.

The person was basically being very P.C. in general, so I was not expecting a bigoted remark, and then when I interrupted to say that I and my family are Russian, the other person did not apologize--but seemed to think that the negative remark that "Russians are really nasty" was just a simple fact, not a personal prejudice.

Yes, I have heard cliches about the Russian people, but more along the lines of either "they don't have anything over there, they are so deprived" or "Russians are more spontaneous-creative and wild or possibly undisciplined"

In my mind this was discrimination/prejedice...all the things that I am afraid of in being openly Jewish. But it came out in regards to being Russian--something I didn't have any defences prepared for.

***

Next time I'll post on the issue of level of observance as it is growing. How fast is too fast?

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Growing up Without Men around...

I was thinking, what happens when females are kept separate from males from a young age--I don't think that this is healthy.
Now, one of the reason that the Orthodox (modest) side of Judaism may appeal to me is that, although I was brought up without religion, we lived far from the city, and my contact with people outside of my family was limited to a couple of times a week--this includes rare contact with children other than my two siblings...
Now, it's one thing for high school students to be separated: I've noticed that those who were attended separate-sex high schools tend to be more respectful of the opposite sex--especially the men are more respectful of women. But anything beyond that age, before or after, might be harmful, causing the females to take on more masculine characteristics than otherwise necessary.
What do you think about this?

"Strawmen"

So, I've been thinking about the last post--and I think I have an insight.

I always want somebody to take responsibility for those things that I truly would like to be my responsibility... so I set someone or something as a "strawman" to be mad at about why such and such is not being done, or why I can't do so and so--instead of figuring out for myself why I am not doing it in the first place.
It seemed to make sense as to how that related to marriage at the time I was thinking about it yesterday, and now it seems to be sort of muddled.
I guess the basic idea is that if I take on all of the housework as my responsibility, then if something truly is not possible to do, then I should work around it, and not whine to myself and others...(sigh) it seemed so much more clear earlier.

I will let this bounce around in my brain for a while and hopefully either come up with the clarity I was feeling, or come to a new insight.

Feminism?

First of all, thanks to those who are commenting on this issue of roles within a couple.
It is an important topic.

So I think I'm going to get into a little about why this is important (to me personally).

I am currently trying to define for myself what my role is as the 1/2 of a married couple.

There doesn't seem to be any role models that work that I can find. Well, except the local Rabbi-Rebbetzin seem perfect in the relatively short time I've known them.
And they are young and have kids like us, but they also are so busy with such orchestrated time and responsibilities, but would I understand if they had problems? Everything looks like lots of work+a clear support system+clear mind.
...I mean, is there time to be confused?
At the moment, these are the only healthy role models that I am aware of.
I have such respect for their positive life...

Is that what I want? A scheduled life like that? Does that fit my personality, and would it work for me?

In my own life I get so worked up trying to think: who should be doing the laundry? If I did all the laundry, would things get better? Would I have any time for myself EVER???????????????
If I did everything, would I be more calm, or more mean to my kids because I wouldn't want them to mess up the clean home?
So many questions...

Here is the Rest of Our Exchange

At Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:25:00 PM, jewish philosopher said...

I think that the basically submissive role of women is made clearest by a statement in Tanna Dbai Eliyahu Rabbah 10:5 which states that "there is no proper woman other than one who does the will of her husband". As far as the reasons for this, I am just speculating. Women do, after all, have a physical similarity to children - small stature, higher voices, lack of facial hair, bigger eyes and smaller noses, etc.

I think that in fact in all societies, including 21st century America, women have less power than men. However Judaism seems to regard this as a fact, not a problem which must somehow be corrected.

Money that a woman earns while married belongs to her husband. Money which she possessed before marriage is controlled by and used by her husband during the marriage but is returned to her after the marriage ends.

At Monday, February 05, 2007 3:46:00 PM, FemaleJewishBlogger said...

Hello,
Here is an article on the Aish website that gives some nice descriptions of the Jewish view of Men and Women
If you have the time or interest, it's worth a read.
I am still trying to define for myself what just does not feel "right" about using the word childish about women. Probably because it gives a feeling of being less than--and I don't think anywhere the Torah regards women as less than men, although most definitely different! Again, enjoying reading the blog...

At Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:34:00 AM, jewish philosopher said...

Women are certainly not children. Women are fully responsible for their behavior, while children are not. However there does seem to be a child like side to women. For example, the Otzar HaMidrashim under the heading “lolam” section 5 states “A desire, a woman and a baby should always be pushed away with the left hand and pulled closer with the right hand.” The difference between American and Orthodox Jewish society seems to be that Americans believe that this difference is a problem which must be corrected, while men hypocritically go about beating, raping and abandoning women. In OJ, this characteristic is accepted as a natural fact however women are treated generally with great respect.

As far as being inferior to men, the Talmud and Bible never actually say that. Women bring new children into the world. Women are certainly far better at dealing with infants than men. They also seem to have some “woman’s intuition” and women are better judges of character than men, according to the Talmud. Some women are certainly far wiser than some men. Children must love and fear their mothers as well as fathers. The last chapter of Proverbs is King Solomon’s praise of his mother.

Just by the way, this blog is apology free. I try to write only the truth, and if that is politically incorrect or distasteful to some, so be it.

At Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:23:00 PM, FemaleJewishBlogger said...

Hello again. I am glad that this blog is "apology free." This whole issue of the roles of man and women is something that I am struggling with in my own life. The latest comment you left gave me some insipiration in the direction of the word "vulnerable"--I feel that one of women's greatest strengths (and joys) is the ability to be vulnerable, and then there is a place for the true strength of a woman to arise: the love and giving and clarity of insight.
If a woman is forced to, by situation, be hard and self-protecting all of the time, she can become an empty shell--moving on automan, and bringing joy to noone... I am going to leave this comment-trail at that. Thank you for the correspondence. I do think that when the honest opinions of two people are expressed, then the weak edges of either opinion are worn off and are more likely to become closer to truth. Shalom!