"Strawmen"

So, I've been thinking about the last post--and I think I have an insight.

I always want somebody to take responsibility for those things that I truly would like to be my responsibility... so I set someone or something as a "strawman" to be mad at about why such and such is not being done, or why I can't do so and so--instead of figuring out for myself why I am not doing it in the first place.
It seemed to make sense as to how that related to marriage at the time I was thinking about it yesterday, and now it seems to be sort of muddled.
I guess the basic idea is that if I take on all of the housework as my responsibility, then if something truly is not possible to do, then I should work around it, and not whine to myself and others...(sigh) it seemed so much more clear earlier.

I will let this bounce around in my brain for a while and hopefully either come up with the clarity I was feeling, or come to a new insight.

Feminism?

First of all, thanks to those who are commenting on this issue of roles within a couple.
It is an important topic.

So I think I'm going to get into a little about why this is important (to me personally).

I am currently trying to define for myself what my role is as the 1/2 of a married couple.

There doesn't seem to be any role models that work that I can find. Well, except the local Rabbi-Rebbetzin seem perfect in the relatively short time I've known them.
And they are young and have kids like us, but they also are so busy with such orchestrated time and responsibilities, but would I understand if they had problems? Everything looks like lots of work+a clear support system+clear mind.
...I mean, is there time to be confused?
At the moment, these are the only healthy role models that I am aware of.
I have such respect for their positive life...

Is that what I want? A scheduled life like that? Does that fit my personality, and would it work for me?

In my own life I get so worked up trying to think: who should be doing the laundry? If I did all the laundry, would things get better? Would I have any time for myself EVER???????????????
If I did everything, would I be more calm, or more mean to my kids because I wouldn't want them to mess up the clean home?
So many questions...

Here is the Rest of Our Exchange

At Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:25:00 PM, jewish philosopher said...

I think that the basically submissive role of women is made clearest by a statement in Tanna Dbai Eliyahu Rabbah 10:5 which states that "there is no proper woman other than one who does the will of her husband". As far as the reasons for this, I am just speculating. Women do, after all, have a physical similarity to children - small stature, higher voices, lack of facial hair, bigger eyes and smaller noses, etc.

I think that in fact in all societies, including 21st century America, women have less power than men. However Judaism seems to regard this as a fact, not a problem which must somehow be corrected.

Money that a woman earns while married belongs to her husband. Money which she possessed before marriage is controlled by and used by her husband during the marriage but is returned to her after the marriage ends.

At Monday, February 05, 2007 3:46:00 PM, FemaleJewishBlogger said...

Hello,
Here is an article on the Aish website that gives some nice descriptions of the Jewish view of Men and Women
If you have the time or interest, it's worth a read.
I am still trying to define for myself what just does not feel "right" about using the word childish about women. Probably because it gives a feeling of being less than--and I don't think anywhere the Torah regards women as less than men, although most definitely different! Again, enjoying reading the blog...

At Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:34:00 AM, jewish philosopher said...

Women are certainly not children. Women are fully responsible for their behavior, while children are not. However there does seem to be a child like side to women. For example, the Otzar HaMidrashim under the heading “lolam” section 5 states “A desire, a woman and a baby should always be pushed away with the left hand and pulled closer with the right hand.” The difference between American and Orthodox Jewish society seems to be that Americans believe that this difference is a problem which must be corrected, while men hypocritically go about beating, raping and abandoning women. In OJ, this characteristic is accepted as a natural fact however women are treated generally with great respect.

As far as being inferior to men, the Talmud and Bible never actually say that. Women bring new children into the world. Women are certainly far better at dealing with infants than men. They also seem to have some “woman’s intuition” and women are better judges of character than men, according to the Talmud. Some women are certainly far wiser than some men. Children must love and fear their mothers as well as fathers. The last chapter of Proverbs is King Solomon’s praise of his mother.

Just by the way, this blog is apology free. I try to write only the truth, and if that is politically incorrect or distasteful to some, so be it.

At Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:23:00 PM, FemaleJewishBlogger said...

Hello again. I am glad that this blog is "apology free." This whole issue of the roles of man and women is something that I am struggling with in my own life. The latest comment you left gave me some insipiration in the direction of the word "vulnerable"--I feel that one of women's greatest strengths (and joys) is the ability to be vulnerable, and then there is a place for the true strength of a woman to arise: the love and giving and clarity of insight.
If a woman is forced to, by situation, be hard and self-protecting all of the time, she can become an empty shell--moving on automan, and bringing joy to noone... I am going to leave this comment-trail at that. Thank you for the correspondence. I do think that when the honest opinions of two people are expressed, then the weak edges of either opinion are worn off and are more likely to become closer to truth. Shalom!

Jewish view of Men and Women

I am trying to define my views for myself and also for the peace in my own family, since my husband was brought up in a very patriarchal society--so it's worth it to me to be clear in my own heart and mind on this issue of the male/female. What follows if my response to J.P.'s response to my comment:

Here is an article on the Aish website that gives some nice descriptions of Jewish view of Men and Women
If you have the time or interest, it's worth a read.
I am still trying to define for myself what just does not feel "right" about using the word childish about women. Probably because it gives a feeling of being less than--and I don't think anywhere the Torah regards women as less than men, although most definitely different! Again, enjoying reading the blog...

Comment to be commented on by readers!

This is in regards to a comment I left on the blog of Jewish Philosopher

First of all, please check out the original post here. The part that is relevant is the last pharagraph.

What follows is my comment:

Hello, I am enjoying your site, and am relatively new to the blogger world. Especially the Jewish blogger world. I would have to take issue though with this idea that women are "childish"
From what I understand about the Torah perspective, the issue is not childish/adult but logical/emotional.

In regards to the following points:
A woman may not be a judge.
A woman may not be a witness.

A person who is logical may be rational or irrational, as well as a person who is emotional may be rational or irrational--but women and men (to my understanding) are meant to each hold one of these two positions. So a woman should be "understanding" of a person who does wrong, and the man should give clear "judgement" according to halachah about the deeds a person has commited. This is in no way judging the person, but just clearly separating out the deeds.

When a woman marries, any money she earns belongs to her husband.
If understand rightly, the money does not belong to her husband, but to her, and she would receive it all back in case of divorce, but she has given it over to his "stewardship". This does not mean that he can do what he pleases, but he is taking on the responsibility of investing it--and of course consulting with her as he would for other family issues.
When a woman marries she may not use her own property, which she owned before the marriage, without her husband's permission.
this I am unsure about.

A daughters inherit nothing if there are sons.
(The point is that virtual all property in the Jewish community is controlled by men.)
First of all, the fact that it is, does not mean that this is the way it should be. We are not perfect, yet... :)
Also, I don't know if this would be an answer, but if you look at the "woman of valour" there are references to women doing business activities (controlling property).

I think Judaism considers women to be on the average slightly more childish and emotional than men and therefore in most cases it is preferable for men to make important decisions.
Women make and have made decisions biblically, but women are not supposed to make Halachic decisions, due to the point mentioned previously about emotional/logical aspects of women and men.
Also, science experiments (of course this can be questioned as to the validity of the studies done) have shown that women do well in the emotional+logical mode, while men are better at and often use their emotional and logical modes separately...which would possibly mean that a man is better at things like fighting and legal decision making on a continuous basis--while a woman might find her expertise better used in a situation where children are being raised, due to the constant patience and forgivness that are required (as well as very important decision making on a moment to moment basis--since a child's life is made up of all these small details and that is what their eventual character and outlook on life is shaped by).
So the male/female roles are not defined by what they can and can't do, but by what role best uses their various strengths.
I would be very interested in your response, as well as the response of other individuals in the Jewish blogging sphere. With peace,